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Radical Treatment or Active Surveillance?

User
Posted 06 Oct 2023 at 16:11

There are a small number of people whose prostate cancer doesn't get worse, or only so slowly it's not going to cause an issue, and consequently a small percentage are still on AS after 10 or more years. Also some men on AS die from something unrelated, so they benefited from avoiding what would have been a pointless prostate treatment.

However, AS clear comes with risk too, and there are a small percentage of men who end up metastatic either while on AS or after switching to active treatment which failed to cure. There are also men who were offered AS but went for prostatectomy instead, and their Gleason/Staging is upgraded from the histology to a level where AS wasn't ever appropriate. Indeed, 40% of patients who have a prostatectomy have their Gleason/Staging uprated by histology, so our ability to accurately diagnose Gleason/Staging in the first place isn't fantastic.

A long time on AS does seem to result on gradual reduction of erectile function and at 10 years it's pretty similar to those who had prostatectomy or radiotherapy. This may be caused by the multiple biopsies during that period.

The key things are how good the scans and biopsy were at accurately assessing your diagnosis, and how good the surveillance is while you're on AS (PSA tests, mpMRI scans, biopsies all being offered when they should be).

If eligible for AS, you can start with it while you take longer to decide what you really want to do, and also re-evaluate if the surveillance provided isn't top notch.

Edited by member 06 Oct 2023 at 16:17  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 06 Oct 2023 at 16:36

I think that is my view Andy (your last paragraph I mean).  I was originally told I couldn't go on AS, as I was 3+4 with 11 positive cores from 18 meaning there was likely quite a bit of cancer in there. I was a bit shell shocked when the second opinion downgraded the diagnosis to 3+3 and AS was put on the table. The surgeon was very clear in his views that RP at this stage was overkill, and then my Urologist said she agreed that AS was a safe option for now.

Now I have no idea how long AS will remain viable. My PSA rose from 5.2 in April, to 5.9 mid May, so what it will be mid December when they next check it is an interesting question. One of the main drivers for me agreeing to go on AS was the fact that currently, having an extended period off work, or worst case having to retire early (leakage when you run a food factory is not ideal) would be a pain. If I can live with being monitored for a couple more years, then that would make the decision easier at that point.

Granted, there is a loud voice in my mind telling me I'm being a knob for not just getting this thing treated as early as possible, but the potential loss of quality of life at my age is currently keeping it quiet. The bit I cant get my head round, is that if I'd opted for RT at first, I would probably be being treated now. It's only because I went for RP, and the surgical team at Addenbrookes got involved, that a second opinion on the Gleason score came out of the woodwork. I just have to hope they were right and Peterborough were being overly cautious.....

I will be spending Christmas sweating a bit as I wait for the results of my next test, and if it has risen at the same rate as it was doing, and hit double figures, I will be changing my mind pretty sharply I suspect.

Steve, I agree with everything you say, and am just trying to buy myself a couple more years if possible, before facing up to the Incontinence issues that will to some degree, accompany treatment.

It's good to be able to talk the reasoning through on this site!

Edited by member 06 Oct 2023 at 16:38  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 10:24

As mentioned by others , you cannot  be entirely sure what the staging of the cancer is until the  prostate has been removed and sliced and diced. In my case, in the year I was actually diagnosed (2021), though I had a PSA reading of 3.58 in 2018, my highest PSA score was 6.01 and I was 3+4 =7 (with less than 5% grade 4) and T2. When my prostate was removed and analysed , my Gleason score remained exactly the same but I was upgraded to a T3a as the cancer was bulging out of the prostate. If I had not had the operation when I did it is very likely that my cancer would have spread beyond the prostate and would have complicated the treatment that was necessary. As it is, there is presently no sign of spread.

 

Ivan

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 11:03

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

As mentioned by others , you cannot  be entirely sure what the staging of the cancer is until the  prostate has been removed and sliced and diced. In my case, in the year I was actually diagnosed (2021), though I had a PSA reading of 3.58 in 2018, my highest PSA score was 6.01 and I was 3+4 =7 (with less than 5% grade 4) and T2. When my prostate was removed and analysed , my Gleason score remained exactly the same but I was upgraded to a T3a as the cancer was bulging out of the prostate. If I had not had the operation when I did it is very likely that my cancer would have spread beyond the prostate and would have complicated the treatment that was necessary. As it is, there is presently no sign of spread.

 

Ivan

 

Ivan, Did you have MRI scans as part of your Active Surveillance...?


User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 11:27

Yes. I was on AS from around April 2021 (when I was diagnosed) until September 2021 when my PSA was recorded at 6.01. I had various scans during that time and there was no indication that the cancer was bulging out of the prostate. My initial biopsy indicated that the cancer was only in a small area of my prostate, hence me agreeing to go on AS, but a further biopsy some 6 months later suggested that it was throughout my prostate. It is very unlikely, not least because of my relatively low PSA score, that the cancer had grown considerably during those 6 months so must have been present when the initial biopsy had taken place. The scan directing the original biopsy needles obviously did not pick up the extent of the cancer. And from memory, the scan before the subsequent biopsy did not either.

A  low grade single prostate cancer cell takes around 450 days to form so a lesion of 1.5 cm as mine was would suggest my prostate cancer may have started around 30 years earlier. Evidence from Japan and the US, where the person has died from something other than prostate cancer, suggests that a number of men aged around 30  are already showing signs of prostate cancer so the need to test from at least age 50  seems a very good idea.

 

Ivan 

Edited by member 09 Oct 2023 at 13:56  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 13:03

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Yes. I was on AS from around April 2021 (when I was diagnosed) until September 2021 when my PSA was recorded at 6.01. I had various scans during that time and there was no indication that the cancer was bulging out of the prostate. My initial biopsy indicated that the cancer was only in a small area of my prostate, hence me agreeing to go on AS, but a further biopsy some 6 months later suggested that it was throughout my prostate. It is very unlikely, not least because of my relatively low PSA score, that the cancer had grown considerably during those 6 months so must have been present when the initial biopsy had taken place. The scan directing the original biopsy needles obviously did pick up the extent of the cancer. And from memory, the scan before the subsequent biopsy did not either.

A  low grade single prostate cancer cell takes around 450 days to form so a lesion of 1.5 cm as mine was would suggest my prostate cancer may have started around 30 years earlier. Evidence from Japan and the US, where the person has died from something other than prostate cancer, suggests that a number of men aged around 30  are already showing signs of prostate cancer so the need to test from at least age 50  seems a very good idea.

 

Ivan 

[/quIote]

 

Ivan,

I find the whole subject rather baffling - I am not even sure if your story indicates AS worked for you or not !

My biopsy showed the suspect artifact on my scan was inflamation, but the biopsy did find cancer elsewhere in the prostate. 

Neither your story nor mine give confidence in scans seeing cancer, and as scans and PSA seem to be the mainstay of AS, I find it worrying.

BTW, I found the biopsy unbearably painful (local anesthetic and a tube to breath through like a an asthma spacer), I am normally fairly resilient to pain, and I truly think the anesthetic did nothing. Is that what you found). For sure I will opt or GA next time. The doctors were unable to get all the cores they wanted as I couldn't help tensing up, so they gave up after 12 prods...)

I hope you're fully recovered now

Matt

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 14:34

Well, Matt, if I knew back in 2018 when I was first tested what I know now I would have certainly taken subsequent action a lot sooner than 3 years after my initial relatively high PSA result. Like most people I had no symptoms and only got myself tested in 2018 because the papers were full of the likes of Michal Parkinson, Billy Connolly, Stephen Fry and Rod Stewart telling people to get tested  as they had been diagnosed with prostate cancer. I guess it could be said that my AS started in 2018, even though no action was taken after the finger up the bottom and the PSA test. It was only after another newspaper article about prostate cancer in 2021 that I decided I ought to have another PSA  test and when that exceeded 4 ( It was 5.32) the doctor decided that more action should be taken. When another PSA test a month later showed an increase to 5.76 I was then put on the cancer pathway (Which is all detailed on my profile). My original biopsy was under local anesthetic, something I did not find  particularly uncomfortable (Perhaps the pretty trainee doctor talking to me about gardening helped), and it may be that because, perhaps, a local biopsy does not go in as deep or is not as far ranging (even though they are working from the scan template), that is why the biopsy then did not find as much cancer as the GA one I had in September of that year did.

 

Certainly PSA is not a particularly good indicator of having prostate cancer, especially in low figures, though a raised level from the norm does suggest that further investigation is needed. And it worked for me. A scan obviously finds irregularities in organs etc but they could be the result of just wear and tear rather than a tumour.

 

Yes, fully recovered now and apart from presently being cancer-free (One can and should never say never) one of the best things is that following the removal of my prostate I now have the flow of a teenager (And have to be much more careful when peeing from a standing up position as its urgency and flow can be overwhelming if one is not pointing in the right direction).

 

Ivan

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 14:44

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

One of the main drivers for me agreeing to go on AS was the fact that currently, having an extended period off work, or worst case having to retire early (leakage when you run a food factory is not ideal) would be a pain. If I can live with being monitored for a couple more years, then that would make the decision easier at that point.

Thanks, yes I can kind of see the logic there although I would caution you about expecting the incontinence to be as bad as you seem to fear especially given your age.
I am 62 and now 4 months post RARP and the incontinence has all but gone. I am using #1 pads which are very discrete and most days they are completely clean at the end of the day. A sneeze might catch me out but all that does is release a dribble - probably less than a teaspoon.
Even just after surgery, I was never filling a pad (#3) and never ever had one leak. I believe the Tena Men that I use have some sort of gel and it can be no worse or different for the women that you employ during their periods or the older ladies who likely have similar leakage.

So, apart from being signed off work for 6 weeks (although I could have gone back to a desk job after 3 if needed) then I personally would not worry about that as a reason to delay the treatment - especially if December brings a PSA > 6. 

Good luck!

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 14:51
Quote:

BTW, I found the biopsy unbearably painful (local anesthetic and a tube to breath through like a an asthma spacer), I am normally fairly resilient to pain, and I truly think the anesthetic did nothing. Is that what you found). For sure I will opt or GA next time. The doctors were unable to get all the cores they wanted as I couldn't help tensing up, so they gave up after 12 prods...)

Matt, that's very unusual - in my case (13 cores) I would say it was uncomfortable but not painful apart from the sharp sting when the gun was fired each time.
When you say 'tube' did you mean that they gave you gas and air?
In my case, the surgeon inserted a tube into my rectum and then gave me two injections, one on each side of the prostate that anaesthetised the area so that all I felt was a sting. There was no pain afterwards, just a dull ache as the anaesthetic wore off.
But if all you had was gas and air I can imagine that it would be quite painful.

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 16:54

I had a local anesthetic injection, and also was told to breath in throw a pipe like device that contained some sort of crystals. (a trial)

I began breathing in through the device, and out through my nose. When I was in told no uncertain terms to stop and breath in/out through the device, I asked why - what possible difference can the breathing out (exhaust) make.

They were concerned me breathing unfiltered "whatever it was" out could have an anethetising effect on the medical team....

The biopsy was a lot worse than wasp stings, 12 times in the same place.  It felt like the needle was 18 inches long and blunt

I though it odd at the time, I was just in an inspection  cubicle with people waiting outside, and I am sure they would have heard me groaning - not pleasant for them...

Needless to say, I didn't rate the trial highly

User
Posted 09 Oct 2023 at 17:22
Yes that sounds awful. Mine was done in what looked like a proper operating theatre - not as elaborate as the one for my RARP as there was not a general, but definitely not a cubicle :)

Mind you, mine was done in France so maybe the NHS has a few problems?

 
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